29 June 2005 @ 12:27 am
RECLAIMING PHILIA: or the mis-sexualizing of relationships  
RECLAIMING PHILIA
or the Mis-Sexualizing of Relationships
revised from the original, posted 6/20/02

Rather than simply repost an old entry, this time, I'm going to update the entry a bit by integrating what originally constituted two separate posts, without (I hope) repeating myself too much. Nonetheless, the original entry bounced off three other entries, and I still want to situate it in that original context, so folks can understand what inspired it.

Back in June of 2002, there was a series of (X-men) related LJ entries discussing the lack of friendship stories in fanfic (as opposed to romance stories). "Shackleton (the whys and why-nots of slash)" by Amanda ([info]qodarkness), "Three Slash Myths That Have to Die," by Andraste ([info]andrastewhite), and "I'm the one you love to hate," by Victoria P. ([info]musesfool). Mostly, the discussion revolved around slash, asking why (some) slash writers tended to sexualize most of the relationships they encountered -- not as a slap against slash as a category (consider the authors) -- but as a question about the prevalence of a certain kind of story.

A remark by [info]andrastewhite in the various comments made me consider the whole question in a larger context . . . and led to this entry. I think this tendency to mis-sexualize relationships extends beyond same-sex pairings, and it's unfair to view it in those terms. The real tendency is to sexualize ANY emotionally intense relationship -- opposite sex as well as same sex -- as if there could be no other kind of "real love" than the sexual/romantic kind (or maybe familial). Friendship is "lesser," and assumed to be less interesting, I fear. That subtle but pervading assumption bugs me -- even though I am, myself, often described as a "shipper."

So let's yank this whole discussion out of the realm of "friendship versus slash." Frankly, I think that narrows the focus too much. It's not about slash at all, only that our social biases make the real issue more visible with regard to slash because same-sex relationship run counter to social expectations. But consider the difficulty people have believing that a (heterosexual) woman and man can have a deep and intense friendship without it turning sexual. Since our society accepts such a pairing as the "default" (assuming neither is married), we rarely pause to question the fact that we make such an assumption in the first place. Maybe we should.

Now granted, if you put together two people who could be sexually attracted to each other, at some point, the question will probably come up: Do we want to romanticize this? It may never be verbalized, even subtly, but one or both individuals will ask it at least privately. And the answer may well be "NO" -- and not because one or the other is repressing the attraction, or because it's not possible to pursue it. There can be a lot of reasons for answering "no." Lord knows, even before I married, I had instances where I considered an attractive long-time male friend and thought, "Hmmm?" But it never got any further than that -- which was a good thing, and I valued the friendship as friendship, not as "failed romance."1

Love doesn't have to be sexual; this is something I think we all know, but let me push it further. Crushes don't have to be sexual, either, if by "crush" we mean an intense emotional attraction to someone. They certainly can be, but they don't have to be. I think most of us have had crushes on people who were not the same gender to whom we're normally sexually attracted -- and that may have felt confusing, but only because of this persistent assumption that powerful emotion felt for a non-family member must have a sexual component. It may. But it may NOT, too -- and not because one is in denial.

Now that I've got your attention by asking some rather radical questions, and being a systematic type, I should set my own comments in some kind of historical context, so I've pulled out that funky Greek term philia that turns up in English words ranging from Philadelphia (City of Brotherly Love) to philanthropy (kindness to human beings).

For all English's exceptionally large vocabulary, it's sometimes a bit impoverished. Consider the word "love" itself. We can love pizza, love our kids, love a movie, love our Spousal Unit . . . and in the process, "love" is reduced and confused to mean a lot of things. I'm hardly the first person to note that. C. S. Lewis wrote an entire book titled The Four Loves, and he used Greek, too, as a starting point to address the matter. In ancient Greek, one had a wider variety of verbs to chose from. I'm only going to address three: eros, philia and agapê. All three could (unimaginatively) be translated in English as "love."

Eros is recognizable in our word "erotic," and that's what it is: erotic, or sexual love. The "fire of desire." The ancient Greeks regarded it as a sickness of the mind, even while celebrating it in some remarkably racy poetry (when it's translated right). Agapê is sometimes translated as "charity" or "selfless love." "Charity" isn't a bad translation of the ancient concept, although "charity" in English has different connotations -- more formalized, I think. We give "charity" to the poor, but we do it (ideally) from agapê. Curiously, "philanthropy" is probably closer to agapê than to philia. Philia is more personal.

Yet philia can pose a problem. It's often translated as "friendship," and that's moderately accurate, but misses the point, really. Philia -- not eros -- is used for the very strongest affective relationships that human beings can form. Eros was understood to run hot, but not necessarily long-lived. There was something rather . . . shallow about it. But to say that one felt philia for another was the GREATEST passion. "Passion," remember, doesn't necessarily imply the sexual, although it can include it. We have to remember that things can be inclusive without being comprehensive.

And it's really philia that I'm interested in here, and which I think sometimes gets short-shafted in our society. Modern Western culture isn't too sure what to do with that kind of passionate love when it falls outside family or romantic relationships. Sure, we can feel philia for our lover. In the best of circumstances, we DO, and we can write a philia story that is also an eros story.

But can we feel something THAT passionate for another if it isn't sexual or familial?

It's often assumed not -- and ergo, there must be something else going on.

I'd like to suggest that's a limited view. It's also a modern, Western view. If we try to apply those assumptions to other cultures and other times, we're committing an anachronism. Moreover, I think we shortchange ourselves when we make those assumptions about our own lives and relationships, here and now. There can be heated passion between philoi that not only ignores the sexual, but outright eclipses it. From Somewhere I Have Never Traveled: the Second Self and the Hero's Journey in Ancient Epic by Thomas Van Nortwick (Yale UP, 1992, 17-18):

"We need to be careful not to misunderstand this intimacy (of the alter ego or second self) . . . Friendship in general is a difficult relationship to fix, seen in our modern [western] cultures as existing on the boundaries of other bonds, familial or sexual, which provide the categories through which friendship itself is defined. The poems we will read here [Epic of Gilgamesh, Iliad, etc.] offer another model for friendship, one accommodating a greater degree of intimacy than is often accorded to nonsexual friendship these days. The first and second selves are intimate because they compose, together, a single entity . . . -- at this level of intensity, sexual love is sometimes inadequate as a model because it may not be intimate enough."

Not intimate ENOUGH. What a novel thought! For our modern times, anyway.

Now, anyone who really knows Greek knows that I've oversimplified for the sake of argument. The Greeks, like us, did use both philia and eros in as many silly and far-ranging ways as we do. But they enjoyed a clearer distinction between the two that we don't habitually make. And eros -- sexual or romantic love -- was always the moon to philia's sun.

Interesting, no?

Now, here's where the rubber hits the road. I don't think philia has really gone away. I just think we tend to forget to factor it in as a real possibility. [info]qodarkness talked in her journal entry about the 'passion of care' that arises between men in extremity. It's the same argument that Jonathan Shay makes in Achilles in Vietnam: Combat Trauma and the Undoing of Character (Simon and Schuster, 1995).2 For instance, he says:

"Modern American English makes soldiers' love for special comrades into a problem, because the word love evokes sexual and romantic associations. But friendship seems too bland for the passion of care that arises between soldiers in combat" (40).

The intensity of combat is unlike much else that human beings suffer. It builds remarkable bonds between people (usually men until recently). I find that important to keep in mind for a fictional world like the X-Men (or various other fandoms where it may apply). In our 'normal' lives, "pair-bonding" may be a -- if not the -- dominant form of attachment ... but in many fandoms, the people we write about aren't living lives anywhere close to ours, and that's important to keep in mind. We may well be writing about characters who live with the mentality of a foxhole, not a garden party, or even a dining room table at supper. The attachments that X-Men, or cops, or combat soldiers make are not the same as ours. And however casually death may be treated in the Marvel universe (dead X-Men never seem to STAY dead, do they?) -- how many times have these people faced death? That, itself, has to build some of that "passion of care." They are combat soldiers, and combat soldiers can love (feel philia for) one another without necessarily LIKING one another. Their situation is unique. (Jean Grey [Phoenix] tells Warren Worthington [Angel] (X-Factor #41): "We both won . . . and lost, didn't we? But we grew up as the first X-Men, fighting . . . always fighting . . . It was exciting . . . But I don't think a normal life would feel . . . right to any of us, anymore . . . We've lost that ability.")

Similar sentiments are sometimes expressed by long-term combat vets. Yes, Jean is romantically interested in Scott Summers [Cyclops], but that doesn't lessen her friendship with Warren, Hank McCoy [Beast], or Bobby Drake [Iceman] -- the other original X-Men (in the comics). Those are her primary ties, and they always will be. Would she sacrifice herself for any of those three, as much as for Scott? Yes. Unquestionably. The same could be said for Harry Potter and his two best friends, Ron Weasley and Hermione Granger. If Ron and Hermione did/do wind up together romantically, Harry wound up with Ginny -- yet it was clear all along that Ron or Hermione would die for Harry if need be (and he for them).

Interestingly, though, this angle isn't often explored in X-Men fic. There's a tendency to see relationships romantically . . . whether those relationships are same-sex or opposite sex. I think [info]andrastewhite was correct when she argued that saying there is "too much of" one thing is usually just a covert way of saying, "I want more of . . ." So I'm not sure there is "too much of" romantic fiction.

But there ARE various ways of defining a "shipper." I call myself a "shipper" because I'm interested in relationships of ALL types, not just romantic ones. In fact, I find romantic relationships more interesting when placed within the large context of friendship and familial relations, and I tend to get rather bored by stories that are only about the romance. I've had several people write to me about An Accidental Interception of Fate or Finding Himself to say that they were (pleasantly) surprised that my little "How Harry Met Sally, X-style" or my Harry Potter Book 5 AU wasn't pure romance -- there was all this other STUFF in there. Yet to me, how could I write any kind of extended story about Scott and Jean or Hermione and Cedric Diggory and not deal with the web of their various relationships? Anything else wouldn't be so much "dishonest" as simply DULL. But more to the point, we don't exist in a vacuum, and neither do our romantic relationships.

Not all passionate love stories need to be sexualized. I got downright irked at times, as I was writing Climb the Wind, over the number of people who wrote to ask if I were going to slash Scott and Logan -- and who expressed disappointment when I said I wasn't. . . despite the fact I'd noted at the outset that Climb was a LOVE (philia) story not a SEX (eros) story. Obviously, I have nothing against slash (*cough*Aorist Subjunctive*cough*). Still, slashing them was neither necessary nor desirable for that story -- even if poor Scott had been anywhere near ready for a new relationship (which he wasn't). Scott and Logan learned to love one another very, very deeply, but it had nothing to do with sex. Considering how unexpectedly popular that story turned out to be -- despite how dark it was -- I'd say that people did find a philia story to be engrossing. Love doesn't always have to be sexual to be interesting. I could say the same thing about the Warren-Scott relationship in Special: the Genesis of Cyclops. Warren may combine both philia and eros for Scott, but Scott doesn't return the eros, only the philia. Does Scott therefore love Warren less? Absolutely not.

Human relationships are far more complex (and messy) than standard formulae would paint them.

Just because two individuals have a passion of care for one another doesn't mean their relationship is concealing sexual tension and they're in denial. Maybe it does, but maybe it doesn't -- and I think the automatic assumption that there must be a sexual subtext (whether homoerotic or heteroerotic) is dismissive of the broad range of human feeling.

Our most significant relationships do not have to be romantic. While the ancient Greeks might have been rather silly about rather a lot, I think that's one thing they got right. Philia is stronger than eros, and while philia might, in fact, include eros -- it doesn't require it.

This isn't an anti-shipper, anti-romance manifesto. I'm a shipper. Nor is it an anti-slash manifesto. I may not write much slash relative to het (Harry/Cedric being something of the exception), but I do read and enjoy a lot of it.

I don't like such polarization -- don't believe it necessary -- and being a contrary, I hate being forced to choose a side. I'll take a little of both, thanks. There's no need to choose a side. Eros (especially eros mixed with philia) can be a lot of fun to write about; but I do sometimes find myself wondering why romantic fanfic seems to be, if not the only type, then certainly a dominant type saturating fandoms? I do believe that philia is, ultimately, the more powerful of these two forms of love, or at least, the longer lasting, but as I noted, philia can exist both with and without eros. My query is why do we (as a society) have such difficulty seeing non-familial, non-romantic philia as powerful -- perhaps even more central for some than romantic love?

I mean consider -- how often have we heard: "They're just friends." Hmmm? What's with this "just," kimosabe? Sometimes we imply a surprising amount about our cultural values in our off-the-cuff phrasing. We (as a society) don't know quite what to do with "philia on the boundaries." It's regarded with suspicion. If it's passionate, there must be something else going on. I find that assumption weird.

What I'd like to do, rather than polarize, is to highlight that there are a wealth of powerful relationships to write about beyond romantic entanglements -- and friendships do not have to be sexual to be meaningful. I'd also like to remind us that even when writing about romantic entanglements, they still exist within a larger context. Too steady a diet of pure romance bores me, and I don't think I'm alone. It's too easy to burn out on it. And really, I think that what readers may want isn't so much "romantic love" as powerful emotion -- which may or may not be sexual. There's plenty of room for both.

Thus, while I'm not sure we need less romance, I would love to see more of OTHER "shipper" stories -- friendships, familial relationships, even the hostile relationship of "best enemies" (that doesn't necessarily end in the bedroom). These are, after all, also 'shipper stories.

Philia deserves to be returned to a prominent place on our emotional mantle -- not seen as the "lesser" (and less interesting) love. It's not. It's the greater.

---------------

1I can think of one in particular. Delightful, handsome, smart dude who I liked a lot. We were old friends, as in 'shared the same crib and bottle' old. But -- 'it' just wasn't there, the spark. And that was okay. I learned more about men and dating from John than from most of the guys I went out with. And some 20 years later after we'd graduated and gone our separate ways . . . was I looking up old boyfriends? Nope. I looked up John, just to see what he'd done with his life. We spent an hour on the phone, trading stories about Spousal Units and kids, just as I would have if he'd had two X chromosomes. Could we have been lovers? Maybe. But really, I think we were both better off as buddies.

2Some of you may recognize that book as being the one I cited as one source for Climb the Wind. But even if one never reads the novel, if you're a fan of Homer, read Shay's work. I'm rarely THAT enthusiastic about a nonfiction book.
 
 
( Post a new comment )
Becky[info]becky_h on June 29th, 2005 12:58 am (UTC)
I don't think this is a slash phenomena at all, actually. I do agree with you that there is this tendancy for all fanfiction to revolve around the sexualization of characters, and their relationships, but I don't think that's becausse humans as a whole are unable to see another sort of love as valid as much as it is the nature of the beast.

Fanfiction is, for many people, to fill in the gaps and to answer the what-ifs. To explore what canon won't show us.

Now, canon will show us Jean and Scott in the odd romantic moment, or the combat, and it has shown us that Scott is willing to sacrafice for his teammates and the impact that the idea of killing Bobby, a close friend, has on Warren.

What it won't show us is the romance as a major plot line. Even as a major plotline, it's something that's sketched and people want to see filled in. Also? Let's face it, people are romantics and they're also a little bit drawn to wanting to see what goes on behind closed doors and between people that they *would't ordinarily see*. (We are also, as a group, a bunch of smut-fiends, but that's only partially the issue)

That is why I think fanfiction has such a focus on the romantic. Because it's what you have n o real hope of seeing in canon. Any canon.

All of that out of the way, I hate, hate hate, feeling that I absolutely must include smut in any fiction, role-play-log, that I want to be read. I'm not a particularly sexually driven person. I'm as interested in the Scott/Bobby dynamic as the original two x-men as I am in them being in bed; more os because I'm not all that sexually oriented as a general rule.

I'm the minority.

What I want is the deep abiding brotherly love that must be there. The answers to my questions are different because I want different questions answered to begin with.

The masses want to know about Scott and Jean's early life, their dating, and how you can manipulate charaacters into relationships: What IF Logan and Scott were sexually attracted.

Those aren't my questions.

I want to know:

What were the early days with Scott and Bobby like?

How did Bobby handle Jean's arrival and the rivalry with Warren over her?

Have Scott and Warren ever discussed Apocalypse? What would hapeen if they DID?

Who was there when Warren woke up without wings, an what the hell did they say to him? How did they handle his death? What went on behind scenes, with that entire arc?

My questions aren't sexually based, but they don't interest anyone else, because people value the romantic relationships more. As you said. Me? I wat to know the veterans of combat and the family. I want my main plot to be explorin that, not the sex.

It won't happen. It doesn't drive itself as well, and it does't draw readers, and even fanfic writers write to the audience.
Becky[info]becky_h on June 29th, 2005 12:59 am (UTC)
I am going to sit and snort as I re-read my comment and realize I managed to both present the side of those who prefer the romance and sex --

and my own which is apparently very similar to yours.

(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on June 29th, 2005 01:38 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]becky_h on June 29th, 2005 02:05 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on June 29th, 2005 02:27 am (UTC) Expand
Wyzeguy[info]wyzeguy on June 29th, 2005 01:07 am (UTC)
Well said, Min.

I've noticed things like that, too: that writers who 'ship their favored characters in a romantic/sexual way because the two chars have chemistry can often miss the point about that chemistry.

Using a real-life example, I have a habit of forming VERY close friendships with people my age who happen to be the opposite sex. But not "VERY close" as in, "we make out and/or shag"; rather, "VERY close" as in, "we hang out all the time, are as inseparable as siblings, and nothing we talk about is TMI." This often confuses the hell out of the people around us, because nobody can figure out why we don't hook up. But as one such friend (we'd known each other since middle school) explained to her boyfriend-at-the-time, "he's [meaning me] my buddy. You're [meaning the boyfriend] my 'friend'." She was basically describing philia in regards to me, and eros in regards to him.

I met another such female friend in college, bonding over a common interest in art and a common boredom with art class. We became inseparable, chattering everywhere we went about everything. We'd gone on 'dates' with each other -- to the movies and to campus-held dances -- but we were never a couple, though everyone around us swore we had all the armarks of one. While we considered going in that direction once or twice, it never happened because our chemistry didn't work that way; nine times out of ten, it didn't occur to us. But try explaining that to a bunch of hormonal people in a college environment, where dating and shagging were encouraged. :)

And there's been an example or two where I'd actually hooked up and dated a girl only to find out we didn't work very well that way, and we were much more comfortable as close friends rather than lovers. I had actually planned the Ororo/Logan relationship in the (still-unfinished) "Enigmatic" series to explore that, and come to a similar conclusion.

In every case, there was quite a bit of chemistry, quite a bit of love. But rarely was it ever the kind that this society recognizes. In every case, the decision was ultimately made that the friendship was more important than the attraction. The decision was ultimately made that eros would (or did) screw up the equation. I can go without eros; I can go without getting laid. I can't go without philia, without the strong, deep friendships, as easily.

But then, I suppose I had an model for that kind of thing growing up: my mom had that kind of friendship with some men in her life, so that could explain why I've accepted that dynamic as more normal than most people do.

Sorry, rambling. :)
Minisinoo: alter-ego (Meret)[info]minisinoo on June 29th, 2005 01:45 am (UTC)
Interesting and important rambling, though. I think MOST of us can describe similar relationships. Whether we're gay or straight or bi, we can find ourselves being friends with people to whom we COULD be sexually attracted, but for whatever reason aren't.

Human relationships are just hugely complex and the social "models" rarely fit our realities. I've known married couples who happily kept open marriages and married couples who UNhappily kept them. I've known divorced couples who continued to have sex on a ragular basis -- they were erotically attracted but just couldn't live together, and the sexual liasons sometimes were -- and sometimes weren't -- exclusive. I've known working trios and non-working one (that is, they were trios, but one or more partners couldn't handle it). I've known friends-with-benefits, lovers, friends, and friendships where one might have liked it to be more but was perfectly content with the friendship. (That latter is really the Scott/Warren relationship. It's quite wrong to see the Warren of Grail as pining sexually after Scott -- he's not. He's long past that, but he still loves him to distraction and the REAL painful part there is that Scott loves Jean a little bit more, not that he wants to have sex with Jean.)

It's all wonderfully complicated, and I love the (very human) complication. :-)
Thread Hijacking - [info]becky_h on June 29th, 2005 02:08 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Thread Hijacking - [info]minisinoo on June 29th, 2005 02:31 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Thread Hijacking - [info]becky_h on June 29th, 2005 02:38 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Thread Hijacking - [info]minisinoo on June 29th, 2005 12:33 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Thread Hijacking - [info]wyzeguy on June 29th, 2005 05:36 pm (UTC) Expand
Hope[info]hopeofdawn on June 29th, 2005 02:55 am (UTC)
Thank you for saying so eloquently what I've never managed to. :-) I don't write in the X-men fandom, but primarily in the Gundam Wing universe, and if there's one thing that makes me feel like beating my head against a wall, it's the overwhelming focus on 'Character A falls in love with Character B' type fanfiction. If one is exceptionally lucky, you'll get some adventure in the middle, but honestly, the noise-to-signal ratio there is overwhelming. And when you get someone like me, who likes focusing on minor characters, issues of fealty and philios and the lines between duty and obligation and love, and well... *shrug* I like to think I'm writing for a niche audience. :-p

Sorry, didn't mean to wander off on a tangent. I was just glad to see there are others out there who like to explore similar things...and I'd love to put up a link to your post in my LJ, if I may. Would that be all right?
Minisinoo: four-color hands[info]minisinoo on June 29th, 2005 03:03 am (UTC)
Sure, go ahead, with the link. I don't think you're by any means alone. And as I was saying to Becky above, I wonder how much it is that people really aren't interested in other stories, versus the reigning assumption being that they're not? Some of this is, I'm sure, the age range of readers, etc. And as I also noted, there's sure nothing wrong with fluff fic and fic-for-consumption, not "thought." But given the enormous popularity of certain decided unromantic stories (at least in X-Men), I'd suggest that we may be missing the reality in favor of perception. People like romance -- no question. But I think people like other things, too, and will cheerfully read it, rec it, and remember it later.
Hermione "Queen Of The Anal Retentives" Granger: tori[info]scribbling_elf on June 29th, 2005 03:38 am (UTC)
Really should be in bed at this hour, but...*guilty look*

This was an interesting read, particularly as I'm currently mentally grappling with my X3 fic(which is still fairly hypothetical, though work has begun, tthough it's been shelved that for the moment, as I'm racing to finish some HP stuff before Book 6 comes out.) and the issue of how much romance/shippiness to include. Canon pairings would be dealt with for sure, but I'm not sure how much else I thought. So yeah, I'm chewing on that, and this is good food for thought. :)

I don't know that I'm much of a romantic in real life (burned out on Harlequin's as a cynical 11 year-old, LOL), but most of the fanfiction I read is 'ship focused. I don't get that aspect as much in what I'm reading in profic, and I guess my preference is for romantic fic. Still, sometimes gen gets the job done best. At times, I've certainly been frustrated by the tendency to sexualize everything, though I know I've been guilty of it myself.

I started out as a Logan/Rogue shipper, but--and this bit could fit with your other post--my view was colored before I ever saw the movie. Knowing nothing about X-Men, I had read some fanfiction, seen some icons, and thought L/R was a *canon* couple. When I watched the movies, I was interpreting them in that light, so when I finally got the picture that they weren't going to become more than friends, I felt cheated! Afterward I started to read more fanfic of them, considered myself a shipper...but then I got to a point where I wasn't satisified with that. Then I found your fanfiction, which held my interest a good deal better, and decided Scott and Jean (together or by themselves) were much more interesting than I had initially given them credit for.

This post certainly strayed from my original point...but there you have some fandom history to boot, LOL. :p
Minisinoo: Grail Ororo (Pugui)[info]minisinoo on June 29th, 2005 09:28 am (UTC)
The fandom history is interesting. :-)

And yeah, as said in the post and a couple replies, I see no reason to boot out romance, but as you said, Still, sometimes gen gets the job done best. And I think it can be equally interesting, maybe even more than people anticipate.
My two cents - [info]scribbling_elf on June 29th, 2005 01:45 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]sssenza on June 29th, 2005 03:56 am (UTC)
Things come out in sex. Even non-Freudian psychologists could see that originally non-sexual issues would often manifest themselves sexually (I think Freud was more about tracing non-sexual manifestations back to a sexual source, which I consider less common). Maybe it's easier to keep stuff buried in the other areas of your life, but harder to keep it buried sexually. Or maybe you just notice it more when it manifests sexually, because sex is so noticeable. Um, the point of that whole paragraph was basically: stuf R easy to turn all secksy without think.

Also. Yes, philia is stronger than eros, and if eros is the only thing, or the main thing, between two people, then there isn't much between them. But compare philia with eros to philia without eros. If my husband and I couldn't share the sexual aspect of ourselves with each other, we would still be great friends, but I think our friendship would be less intimate, because of that part of ourselves that was getting left out.

I know "non-sexual" friendship need not leave sexuality out completely. After all (and yes, I'm going to make the obligatory Sex and the City reference), Carrie and her friends definitely knew a lot about each other's sexual lives, sexual tastes, sexual responses. They empathized with each other's sexual stories. My husband and I could still be familiar with each other's sexuality if we didn't participate in erotic interactions with each other, if we didn't eroticize each other. But, I think, not AS familiar. Direct experience of it, being personally engaged in it instead of having second-hand knowledge of it, that makes a difference.

Now, it sounds like I'm trying to say that friendship + sex is always more intimate than "just" friendship. But I don't think so. A rather weak friendship with sex added is still a rather weak relationship. And often eros can distract from the friendship, steal energy from philia and never give it back, because sex is very noticeable and attention-grabbing and greedy.

Oh, and I just thought I'd mention, in case it's somehow relevant, that I often make semi-joking sexual remarks or flirtations to my friends in order to indicate my affection for them, rather than sexual interest in them. (My husband does, too.)

And, does slash count as sexual interaction? Because I'm not actually hot for (picks random author's name out of hat) shalott, but she does get me hot with her stories. Or is it McKay and Sheppard who get me hot? But... they don't exist, and neither does their hot man love. Maybe it's just my own mind that I'm sexually interacting with?

... me confused...
Minisinoo: crystal pen[info]minisinoo on June 29th, 2005 09:37 am (UTC)
Some interesting additions, particularly the note that non-sexual friendship may still include sexual aspects -- very, very true! Thanks for noting it. In fact, I think the closest ones will because sex is part of life and becoming truly intimate with another person involves knowing about all, or nearly all, aspects of their lives.

On whether friendship with sex will always be a step more intimate that the other ... on that, I think situation is really the key element. For many of us, that may be true. But for the characters many of us write about, it may not. The original discussion emerged in relation to X-Men (although it can generalize), and not only is sex a very powerful tie, so it death, or the threat of it. It's no accident death and sex often go together. (g) Both represent extremes. It's just that most of us hope we don't experience war or other extreme physical danger. But in X-men, we're writing about people who do, and so that has to be factored in. The extremes of human experience can build ties that might not otherwise exist, and can wind up being as powerful, or more poerful, than more traditional bonds. That can be forgotten (for obvious reasons) by those who aren't, themselves, used to thinking in those extreme terms. So if two vets from Desert Storm wind up spending as much or more time with each other than with their wives, an individual with a background in the military, especially combat experience, may not look askance at that at all, or assume there's a sexual element. But someone without that background, may assume there is a sexual element that the two are denying or hiding. That says more about the backgrounds of the observers than the vet pair. They may also be lovers, but they may not.

Hopefully some of that made sense. I haven't had my requisit cups of coffee yet. (g)
penknife: hmm[info]penknife on June 29th, 2005 05:26 am (UTC)
Our most significant relationships do not have to be romantic.

Depends on who the "we" is. I think it's true that for some people, non-sexual relationships can be central to their lives, but for other people, that's really not a satisfying arrangement. And when non-sexual relationships are the most intimate and central relationships in someone's life, sometimes there's a price in terms of how intimate and central to their life their sexual relationships can be.

One thing people often point out about the characters on "buddy shows" is that whether or not their relationship with each other is sexual, there's just not a lot of room for a romantic relationship with a woman in their lives. It can be a tremendous conflict for people to feel passionate love for someone who's not their sexual partner, even when that's not accompanied by desire. It's not always possible to make multiple intense relationships -- of whatever sort -- work at the same time; people have conflicting needs, don't always get along, get jealous, etc.

Of course, people's mileage varies tremendously, and almost any arrangement does work for some people. And I'm interested myself in reading and writing about family relationships and friendships and non-sexual love. But I get a little twitchy when, in a modern American setting, authors write characters making a passionate but non-sexual friendship the center of their emotional lives and don't spend any time exploring the consequences of that choice on their other relationships.

deleted and reposted to fix a couple of grammar bobbles that were driving me insane to look at
Minisinoo: angel skeptical[info]minisinoo on June 29th, 2005 09:47 am (UTC)
But I get a little twitchy when, in a modern American setting, authors write characters making a passionate but non-sexual friendship the center of their emotional lives and don't spend any time exploring the consequences of that choice on their other relationships.

Oh, I agree. I think that's part of what makes them interesting. Your note about the ramifications on other relationships, and not having "room" is very apt, and is a lot of what I'm currently playing with in the Scott/Jean/Warren triangle. The social structures around them do not allow or support that kind of relationship, and it causes no end of problems, both for them and for how others understand their relationship. Plus there's also just the "who do you love best?" aspect that always comes forward with three.

On the "we" -- that's a good point, and part of what I wanted to note in particular. As I said to someone above in comments, these original comments took place very much in relation to X-Men, and while I don't think it has to stop there, I think that is significant, which is part of why I quoted the sources I did. They're not living normal lives, and that will color their experience, make it different, just as the lives of combat vets, police, firemen, etc., are also off the norm. That may not reflect our experience, and I think the tendency to form pair-bonds that include sex is probably the dominant form, but it's not the only one, particularly not for some of the folks we write about in fandom (again, obviously, depending on the fandom). And that's something we as writers have to chew on, and think about as part of characterization. How do we want to cast a particular relationship? So that's why I say our most significant relationships don't have to be romantic. They can be, but they don't have to be, especially not if our lives are somewhat atypical. (As noted, this isn't an either/or argument, so much as a both/and.)
cathexys: OT3[info]cathexys on June 29th, 2005 05:43 am (UTC)
with you all the way on the philia
what a provocative and fascinating essay! I think you're very right, and it reminds me of this discussion a while back...

Still, two thoughts: as we've often bemoaned, I think it's not just a fic phenomenon. After all, how many of us wish they'd left Mulder and Scully as closest intimate (yet not physically intimate) friends? Personally, I felt the same way about Angel and Cordelia (though that might have had as much to do with Buffy as with the fact that I really, really *liked* their relationship before it got all the romantic overtones). So, as you said, we're probably culturally conditioned to not be able to separate as nicely as your greek quote did, and the texts we use are already doing it...

As far as fanfic is concerned, however, I feel like a lot of it explores what we don't see. And for quite a few pairings, we *do* see the close friendships, the philia, the ties that may bind closer than eros can (and certainly longer lasting). So, esp. in slash, where the show writers do not or will not take that last step, we do it instead. Part may be that we want to think about the things that we explicitly don't see (b/c we see the close emotional ties very clearly on screen); part of it may be that there seems to be something wrong (in our culture?) in separating the two: howmany times have we pitied the smarm Jim&Blair who live and love together but go for sex elsewhere.

I think it also might be related to the way sex functions in fanfic as a metaphor for emotions most of the time so that sex often carries with it quite intense emotional resonances of "knowing" the other person, of being intimate...maybe fanfic sex collapses eros and philia? folds the emotional intimacy into the physical one when we get tropes such as mind melds and anything leading up to it (i'm fascinated in the way a lot of times one partner "knows" the other, can intimate their desires, needs, feelings by just looking at them, can "read" their bodies,...). We like having the two together, so that the separation not only may leave us where we started but also doesn't fulfill that emotional kick that seems to be at least one charge we can get out of fic...

In other words, you're right. It is all about the philia, but it get expressed physically (at least in buddy fic; enemy fic works a little differently, though there you often have the "bodies knowing each other as indicative of their really being on the same side" as well).
Minisinoo: pen writing[info]minisinoo on June 29th, 2005 10:17 am (UTC)
Re: with you all the way on the philia
So, esp. in slash, where the show writers do not or will not take that last step, we do it instead.

I think this is part of why I like (and read) slash, because it does challenge what we think we see, and asks questions about what goes on behind closed doors.

And really, as noted, I see nothing wrong with doing any of that. And as you said, a lot of writers are writing fanfic to get what the show doesn't give. So the above is definitely not about that being wrong, by any means. As I said, I'm not sure this is a case of needing "less" of anything, so much as encouraging us to think about the possibility of another direction.

I think we ARE conditioned, as you point out, to see things in romantic terms, and it's interesting that you picked up on Mulder and Scully, as they were one pair that popped to mind. (So also would be Stabler and Brown on Law and Order: SVU, although Stabler is married, which I think, keeps at least some from seeing that romantically.) Those are both good example of "real world" extreme situations that will create ties that are different from the usual, the same as combat. (It is combat, really.) So whether it's fantastical X-Men or RL cops or agents, the situations are off the beaten track. And with poor Mulder and Scully, by the time they were done with them, sex was really kinda "anti-climatic." I myself had nothing particularly against M/S stories, but I also read a lot of friendship stories, too, and I never much cared for the M/S stories that focused exclusively on the romantic relationship.

Again, as you noted, people often write what isn't there in the show, but sometimes I've found the "what isn't there" has so little of what attracted me to the show/characters that I'm simply not interested in the fanfic anymore. Obviously, that's a YMMV sore of thing, as others clearly are. All of which brings up a different kind of question -- when does fanfic stop being fanfic? And I don't mean in a "profic" sense or in terms of quality. But if fanfic is about taking the show/characters in additional or different directions, can there come a point where it's been pushed so far from its original context that it's really stopped BEING fanfic and become original fiction with familiar names and faces? It's a question that interests me, and I'm inclined to answer "Yes," to that, although I recognize that I answer "yes" because of how I define fanfic.
Re: with you all the way on the philia - [info]cathexys on June 29th, 2005 10:32 am (UTC) Expand
Re: with you all the way on the philia - [info]minisinoo on June 29th, 2005 11:07 am (UTC) Expand
Redhawk: FIZZGIG![info]redhawk on June 29th, 2005 05:45 am (UTC)
THIS is my huge beef with fandom
The missexualizing of relationships.

Drove me clear out of the entire field. It seems that men aren't allowed to be friends with men. Nor women with women. Nor men with women, or women with men.

It's always got to be sexual.

And, dammit, I think that we've gone too far and lost too much by taking that approach.

It makes me sad, and it infuriates me.

Redhawk

Minisinoo: Dani[info]minisinoo on June 29th, 2005 10:21 am (UTC)
Re: THIS is my huge beef with fandom
I tend to see less of it in comicsfic, actually. And as I noted, I don't have any trouble with romance being there (given how much of it I write (g)). But I do find that I tend to be disinterested if that's all that's there, and if that's all I find in a given fandom, I usually don't read it very long. I think a lot of why I got into X-Files was because there, too, one had a wide variety of stories, including a lot of X-file and mytharc stories which tended to be "in addition to" what one saw on the show. I didn't mind if romance was part of that, but I wanted it to be part of that, rather than the whole of it, at least for any length of time. Then again, I think I have probably read a grand total of 20 Romance novels in my entire life, while my cousin used to read 20-30 romance novels a month. So clearly tastes vary. (And I always found it amusing that this cousin with the Romance novel fetish was a medical examiner in RL, and worked on dead bodies all day long. Maybe that's why she needed the Romance. LOL!)
Re: THIS is my huge beef with fandom - [info]redhawk on June 29th, 2005 10:47 am (UTC) Expand
Re: THIS is my huge beef with fandom - [info]minisinoo on June 29th, 2005 11:15 am (UTC) Expand
The RCK[info]therck on June 29th, 2005 07:57 am (UTC)
(Here via the link on [info]hopeofdawn's LJ.)

The definitions of eros, philios, and agape that always stick in my mind are 'love of the body,' 'love of the mind' and 'love of the soul' with agape simultaneously the most profound and the least personal. I don' t know that I exactly buy those definitions, but they've given me a starting place. (Most of my dissatisfaction comes, I think, from a feeling that agape ought to be separated into parts. I can't think of any other category into which to put, for example, my love for my daughter, but that love is different on a basic level from that which prompts me to make charitable donations. It's specific and personal.)

I have noticed a tendency in our culture to assume that adults can have only one deep emotional attachment, that is that one can't have both a deep friendship *and* a sexual love, not unless they're with the same person. I think it's a destructive assumption because it leads people to believe that relationships that fall short of this ideal aren't good ones and aren't worth working to maintain.

When it comes to fiction, I suspect that a lot of the focus on romance/sex comes from the fact that our culture has a fairly clear set of guidelines for how a writer should present that sort of interactioin and its complications. The writers and readers can generally assume that they'll be speaking the same language. Other sorts of relationships require more explanation, more work from all parties involved. That doesn't make them less worthwhile (rather the opposite, IMO), but it does make them harder to do right.
Minisinoo: phoenix[info]minisinoo on June 29th, 2005 10:37 am (UTC)
On the definitions, those are good starting places, and as I noted in the essay, I'm being somewhat deliberately simple of the sake of argument. If one actually looks at HOW the Greeks used the terms, they're as mixed up as we are. (g) And the context often changes it, so philia used in, say, Xenophon's Anabasis (a primarily military text) will have a very different meaning than it would in Aristotle.

And I liked your raising of your daughter as a point, as that's something I didn't really get around to talking about and would have liked to, but I figured it was long enough. (G) Parental love for a child is probably, IMO, THE most powerful love of all. It's something that, until I experienced it, I didn't understand, and of course, I've heard that same thing from parents so often it's really a cliche -- but an utterly true one.

The reason I find that pertinent, though, and wish I could have included it is that I've heard both cops and vets speak of fellow (younger) compatriots in parent-child language. When I was writing Climb the Wind, I also portrayed Logan's love for Scott as a parental love. He's not really Scott's father, but he does come to think of himself as being "father-like."

I have noticed a tendency in our culture to assume that adults can have only one deep emotional attachment, that is that one can't have both a deep friendship *and* a sexual love, not unless they're with the same person. I think it's a destructive assumption because it leads people to believe that relationships that fall short of this ideal aren't good ones and aren't worth working to maintain.

Exactly. And I think some people make that assumption because it's what they've been conditioned to think. I believe others make it because it's true for them. A lot depends on the supporting social structures, too. I know that teachign about antiquity to modern US students, I often face the hurdle of trying to get them to see that not only was marriage not the most significant emotional relationship for most ancient people, there was no social assumption that it SHOULD be. Some students "get" that, and can run with it, other don't. They may "get" it in that they can write it on a test, but they consider it "wrong" or "warped." Obviously the ancient Greeks and Romans would think we're warped. (g)

Other sorts of relationships require more explanation, more work from all parties involved. That doesn't make them less worthwhile (rather the opposite, IMO), but it does make them harder to do right.

Yup, I think that's a lot of it -- and part of why I encourage people to explore other types of relationships. It's not that there's anything wrong with one, only that it can become a default -- and a crutch. It can be both more fun and more challenging to push the envelope and ask other questions. (And I don't think it really loses readers, unless it's done badly or is boring -- but that's a writer problem, not a story problem, if you follow.)
(no subject) - [info]sssenza on June 30th, 2005 03:21 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on June 30th, 2005 10:39 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]sssenza on July 1st, 2005 04:13 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on July 1st, 2005 09:12 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]sssenza on July 1st, 2005 03:31 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]therck on July 1st, 2005 08:14 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on July 1st, 2005 02:33 pm (UTC) Expand
Jade Lennox: pomo[info]jadelennox on June 29th, 2005 08:53 am (UTC)
Here via [info]cathexys:

I've been known to do the opposite in my fic. That is, when I think a source show/movie/book has mistakenly sexualised a relationship which should be philia, or has focused on erotic love and ignored the other relationships in the text, I'll write fic which I think explores the missing relationships. I've been known to write stories for pairing-based ficathons in which I explored the philia relationship.

In other words, I agree that this is a failing, but it aggravates me almost more in professional fiction than it does in fanfiction.

... to be fair, it's a failing of human beings in general. I know plenty of otherwise intelligent adults who get extremely confused when they find themselves becoming close to a member of the appropriate sex and assume that they should be feeling love or erotic infatuation.
Minisinoo: Scott & Jean (Meridian)[info]minisinoo on June 29th, 2005 10:46 am (UTC)
but it aggravates me almost more in professional fiction than it does in fanfiction.

Yup, I don't think this is by ANY means only a "fanfiction" problem, any more than it's a "slash" problem. It's a general tendency in modern Western culture to see relationships in those terms. I think the fascination with OTPs is part of the evidence for that. I can't say HOW many times in my fandom I've heard people defend a particular pairing as "They were just meant to be together!" Er, okay ... and why is that? I'm constantly poking people who are grand fans of Scott/Jean who say that. I find it annoying even though that's the pairing I write the most myself. There IS not "they were just meant..." No, they weren't. There's a particular set of events that brought them together and their complimentary personalities that keep them together. I believe that's often what people actually mean and use "meant to be" as a shorthand. But as soon as one does that, one takes away what makes it interesting. Declarations of love do not love make, and people who think they do are doomed to failed relationships, one after the other. I don't care what they think; I've seen it happen more often than I care to note, and our society does often contribute to the problem (and I don't mean fanfic). There's a problem in the society in general with showing what comes after the romance -- how to make it work. People say, "That's not as interesting!" Well, maybe that's why our divorce rate is sky-high, too. (I don't mean to oversimply the reasons for divorce, by any means, as they are many and diverse, but I've done enough court-appointed mediations for divorce settlements to be all-too-aware how many people really have no clue "what comes after 'I do'" -- at least not more than a few years down the road. Modern western society knows a lot about romance, but not so much about marriage. ;>

Not that any of that really has to do with the above post, but it's a related issue that follows from the same symptoms. (And there's quite a lot more philia in a successful marriage than there is eros after a few years.)
Isis: statue[info]isiscolo on June 29th, 2005 09:29 am (UTC)
[via [info]cathexys]

I wonder if the reason for the conflation of eros and philia is that we (mostly-heterosexual women who write and read fanfiction) see that as the ideal relationship? We see fictional and real marriages where one or the other element is missing, and vow that ours will never be that way; we strive for marriage to someone who is not only attractive sexually, but is "my best friend." (Or maybe the other way around!)

Eros without philia is empty, philia without eros is incomplete.
Minisinoo: four-color hands[info]minisinoo on June 29th, 2005 10:56 am (UTC)
Eros without philia is empty, philia without eros is incomplete.

A point of clarification: did you mean that many people think that way, or that the statement is true in an absolute way? If the former, I certainly agree. If the latter, though, I wouldn't agree for reasons outlined in the post. (I'm kinda assuming the former, that people think that way, given the paragraph above, but wanted to clarify. (g))

Another reason that I think those who write fanfic tend to conflate the two and/or insist they should go together has to do with the situation of the writer versus the situation of the characters. This is something I alluded to in the post, and got more specific about in a couple of above replies. Obviously, it varies a lot from fandom to fandom, but a number of characters in fanfic are not living "normal" situations, although those of us writing about them ARE. Pair-bonding is the dominant form of relationship between people of the same general age, which is why marriage is (almost) a universal in human society. It supercedes most all other relationships. But as soon as the situation becomes "abnormal" in some way, that changes. War and war-like situations, in particular, screw up the lines. We're back to the "sex and death." Living through combat creats a bond that's all but impossible to understand by anyone who hasn't experienced it (and I use 'combat' somewhat losely, as I think cops DO understand that bond because they, too, experience 'combat'). None of which is to say soldiers, cops and others can't become sexual with each other, only that it's not required for the intensity of bonding whereas it often is, in more 'normal' experiences. (Although even there, I think there are also plenty of exceptions.)
(no subject) - [info]isiscolo on June 29th, 2005 11:49 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on June 29th, 2005 12:23 pm (UTC) Expand
Vasiliki[info]vasiliki on June 30th, 2005 01:01 am (UTC)
Found this through a link, and enjoyed reading it.

I'm also in favour of philia over eros... for the simple reason it's the only thing that CAN last throughout someone's life! :) From childhood, before the sexual awakening, to old age, when sexual desire has been long subdued, love between two friends doesn't fade. Friendship remains sacred in Greece, where males can still be seen hugging and kissing each other (it's become less common with younger people due to globalization/Americanization - all those films, TV series and comicbooks full of male friends who don't touch! O_O).

The feeling of agape is the closer equivalent of English "love". (I believe that translating it as "charity" is fitting only for the time period of early Christianity.) Eros is what we call "in love" in English (by the way, eros is only for the young, not the old). The difference between this "I love" and "I'm in love" is something that often goes lost to native English speakers. I wasted a lot of time and paper 10 years ago, at a time when I was an avid correspondent, trying to explain to my penpals this HUGE (to me) difference between "I love" and "I'm in love". You can love your family, but you're not in love with them. And married couples are not in love anymore after 10 and 20 years, yet they still love each other. Imagine my despair when my penpals couldn't understand, or even worse, they disagreed about the long-married couples! But for a Greek person, if a couple doesn't outlive the end of eros, then it's doomed - a relationship between a couple is only viable if agape comes before eros goes away... because it WILL go away, one can't remain in the drunken state forever.
To conclude, eros is a passionate and crazy affair (it needs "the spark"!) but unfortunately short-lived, agape is deep and long-lasting, philia is agape between two friends. :)
Minisinoo: celebration[info]minisinoo on June 30th, 2005 11:10 am (UTC)
Ah, a Greek! :-) Your comments made me realize that I should probably have specified more than I was talking only about the ancient definitions of the words. They're similar today, but have shifted just a little. I'm not sure in modern Greece that philia is used the same way as it was in ancient texts, but then, my grasp of modern Greek is not very good. (g)

But yes, I've found other cultures are somewhat more comfortable with the idea that eros won't last ... and doesn't need to. I think it puts less pressure on marriages.
(no subject) - (Anonymous) on June 30th, 2005 06:14 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on June 30th, 2005 06:53 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]vasiliki on June 30th, 2005 06:17 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on June 30th, 2005 06:54 pm (UTC) Expand
Barb: desk[info]rahirah on June 30th, 2005 10:49 am (UTC)
Ooh, yes, this is exactly what I feel about a lot of pairings. I'm far, far more interested in the friendship between Mulder and Scully, or the love/hate/rivalry/brothers-in-arms relationship between Angel and Spike, than I am in romance between them. In both cases the romance was eventually made canon, but in both cases getting confirmation of sex was almost irrelevant; if it hadn't happened, there would still be no doubt whatsoever that they were incredibly important to one another for many, many other reasons.

Actually, thinking about it, I think the Buffy/Spike stuff on the last season of BtVS was supposed to show them developing philias which was supposed to eclipse and surpass the dysfunctional eros of their prior relationship. But the message was hopelessly muddled because for that to succeed, they'd have had to demonstrate that the characters were no longer sexually attracted to or jealous of one another, and they never managed it--or never dared to manage it. As pointed out above, romance sells, and I think the writers were afraid to dip their toes in the waters of a non-romantic relationship that was nevertheless of primary importance to the characters. At least, not for the main characters.
Minisinoo: Grail Jean (Pugui)[info]minisinoo on June 30th, 2005 11:07 am (UTC)
I never did watch Angel or Buffy regularly, but that's definitely true on Mulder and Scully. In their case, I didn't really mind the romance, because it DID come with some much "other stuff" and as a result of that other stuff. But I could just as easily have had them remain in a non-sexual relationship. (And back when I was reading a lot of X-Files fanfic, I read both the shipper and friendship stories, and never really got into the war between them. As typical of me, my reply was, "I'll take a little of both, thanks." LOL!)

An additional thing I didn't talk about is the tendency of people to pair up after experiencing extreme emotion, but for that relationship to later completely fall apart, because there wasn't the right kind of connection. Again, I think this happens because it's modeled in TV shows and movies, where after undergoing extreme danger, the hero and heroine wind up together romantically at the end (we're not quite to the hero and hero stage of that as a summer blockbuster, but the same would apply (g)). But the movie or TV show doesn't show the relationship 6 months later. Extreme danger does build very strong bonds -- but they're not necessarily suitable for pair bonding, and the other side is that when one DOES match up extreme emotion and the potential for pair bonding, it may be with the 'wrong' gender -- the gender we're not normally attracted to, and/or we may have prior marital commitments. And that's okay. The bond can still exist. It's just that we're not very used to seeing that modeled except in some buddy movies. I'd like to see that more with women. As much as I liked Xena, for instance, I was a little disappointed in the tendency for the fans to slash them -- something even the producers picked up on and played with in the series so that by the end, a sexual relationship between them was almost canon. And the reason that annoyed me really wasn't over the same-sex part, but just that we are SO rarely presented with "buddy" stories with WOMEN on TV, where the WOMEN pick up and leave the guys in order to stay together, that I wished it could have remained non-sexual. Or at least, canonically non-sexual, and let the femslashers play with the subtext in fiction. (The buddy movie for women is more common, from Steel Magnolias to Waiting to Exhale. The one TV exception was Sex in the City, although I wasn't able to watch more than some episodes here and there.)
Re: women buddy stories - [info]parallactic on July 3rd, 2005 03:41 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: women buddy stories - [info]minisinoo on July 3rd, 2005 03:59 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: women buddy stories - [info]parallactic on July 3rd, 2005 08:01 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: women buddy stories - [info]minisinoo on July 5th, 2005 10:35 am (UTC) Expand
Re: women buddy stories - [info]parallactic on July 5th, 2005 10:41 am (UTC) Expand
Re: women buddy stories - [info]minisinoo on July 5th, 2005 10:56 am (UTC) Expand
like a vore turducken: OTP (articulated)[info]apathocles on June 30th, 2005 11:08 am (UTC)
Just... yes. Thank you.

As great as porn and romance can be, I think that friendship fic is vastly underrated, and I really do wish that there were more of it about. I've read so many stories that've felt like wonderful, true, real friendship stories... and then I get to the end, and find out that the author was merely doing all that as an excuse to get the two characters to shag. And usually two characters that probably wouldn't've done it in the first place.

Now, I love fic about non-canonical sexual relationships, but it rarely entirely works, for me; a story has to be incredibly well-written for me to suspend my disbelief. Sure, I can enjoy it, but I can't really believe it. And it's just, so many of these stories did work for me up until the sex began, and I just want to pull out my hair in frustration. Why must 99% of fic be about the sex? Can't people just be really good friends, sometimes? Occasionally? Just once? Please?

Particular fandoms/parts of fandoms colour it, of course, as do the experiences of the writer/reader. As a twenty-something virgin (oh, the shame *eyeroll*), I get rather offended when (some) people say that they can't explore the relationship between two characters -- two characters who have never shown a hint of romantic or sexual interest in one another -- without having them screw like rabbits. That their relationship lacks meaning or depth if there isn't sex. Does that mean all of my real-life relationships with my friends lack meaning? Bugger that.

On the other hand, I guess I can't claim to understand how people involved in sexual relationships see the subject. And, of course, there'd be a million variations within the viewpoints of 'people who have sex'.

Sex can play an incredibly important role in a relationship, and I love reading about it... but damn, I wish that love would get a better representation. Love isn't merely fucking. It's being willing to put yourself on the line for a person, or cleaning up after they've been sick and the room smells like puke, or telling them the hard truths when no-one else will, or being a shoulder to cry on even though you're running late for an appointment. And that is not explored nearly often enough.

I'd just like to see a story in which someone comforts their friend after a tragedy, and it's absolutely, totally non-sexual, y'know? *sigh* God knows, if someone I know has died, I don't go to my close friends, and then cry on their shoulders in a way that says 'I'm overwhelmed by grief, and you're my totally platonic friend -- we should have sex!'. Hey, maybe some people think like that, but I really doubt that the majority do.

And yes, I know that there's an element (or ten) of fantasy within fanfic, and fiction in general. Doesn't stop me from wanting realism within my stories occasionally, though. I'm willing to deal with (what I perceive to be) unrealistic, wish-fulfilment fic most of the time, but I really feel that there needs to be more real, true-to-canon, non-sexual-love fic. Because I'm having trouble finding it at the moment.

(It's strange, how fandom goes in cycles; I just made a similar comment on a completely unrelated LJ. Heh.)

Thinking about soldiers, and the Australian 'mateship' springs to mind. The term is certainly used for soldiers from the World Wars (not so much the current fighting, but give it time), and goes beyond simple friendship. It even tends to have different connotations when used for soldiers than it does with civilians, although the word 'mateship' itself doesn't tend to spring up too often with regular people -- more 'they're good mates', or something similar. It goes beyond regular friendship, and is one of those words that our PM loves to use when trying to inspire patriotic fervour.

Not that I'm actually going anywhere with this; just thinking out loud, really. Certainly, it's a word in our culture that implies love between men (and perhaps women; hard to tell), without using the actual word 'love', which would be wussy. ;)
Minisinoo: Grail Rogue (Pugui)[info]minisinoo on June 30th, 2005 02:13 pm (UTC)
Two things really caught my eye -- the first your remark about "mates." I remember a little while after X-Men was first getting going, and the R/L fandom become such a prominent subgroup. Many folks were highly critical of the pairing, and others defended it vociferously -- it got kind of nasty. Myself, I don't see those two as a romantic pair, but I can buy it in some fic where it's well presented, so I'm neither strongly pro R/L nor against it -- which is important to establish.

Anyway, on the R/L side of it, several of those supporting it would argue that they couldn't understand how ANYone could see the chemistry between those two and not interpret it as romantic. And there was a little quote that wound up being an email tag for several folks in the fandom that amounted to (badly paraphrasing because my memory sucks) "If Singer intended the Logan/Rogue relationship to be platonic, Hugh and Anna didn't get the memo." Which is cute -- but wrong, I think.

In the midst of these arguments, someone (from Australia, and I forget who it was) pointed out that both Anna and Hugh are Australian, and Aussie culture has a stronger concept of "mates" that tends to allow for very close nonsexual m/f relationships. She didn't think they'd intended it to be sexual at all -- and she didn't read it that way, either, coming from the same culture. She was jumped on by a lot of R/L fans making teh same argument -- of course it had to be sexual, there was too much chemistry ... etc.

Really pissed me off not because I'm anti-R/L, but because I thought the woman had an excellent point. Different cultures are different -- including different English-speaking cultures. Lord knows, Aussies, Brits, Kiwis, Americans and Canadians are NOT alike, even at the "broad" cultural level, never mind the the various sub-cultures in all those (three rather large) countries. Growing up biracial, I've been VERY aware of how different the body langauge is in native culture versus white -- and how I'm sometimes misunderstood because of that.

So yeah -- culture has a BIG impact on how we express ourselves, and to insist that others had to mean what we mean is blinkered. And however much I may like a pairing, I'm often royally irked by the more militant devotees of it -- including my "own" pairing of Scott and Jean. (I get heartily sick of hearing, "They were just meant to be ..." No, they weren't. No couple was 'meant to be.' Couples become couples for very particular reasons. OTPs make me pull out my hair, but that's another issue. Also, what's with these ridiculous-sounding conflations of names. "JOTT" is what I do with a note on a piece of paper. It's not a pairing.)

Anyway, a very vague story because I've forgotten a lot of the details, but your comment about mates reminded me of it.
(no subject) - [info]apathocles on July 1st, 2005 09:01 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on July 1st, 2005 01:53 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]apathocles on July 1st, 2005 09:14 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on July 1st, 2005 01:59 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]apathocles on July 2nd, 2005 06:45 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on July 2nd, 2005 12:10 pm (UTC) Expand
Mme Bahorel: ionianmission[info]mmebahorel on June 30th, 2005 11:15 am (UTC)
Thank you. The fandom that makes me want to tear my hair out and cry has this exact problem. The canon is all about philia, but so many people would rather just slash the two main characters, despite the fact that in two out of the first three novels, the idea of homosexuality comes up for both of them and neither accepts the idea as pertaining to them. These two men love each other deeply, but they will never have sex with each other. They are both so bloody hetero. But no, a movie has to come out and then there are masses of fangirls who assrape canon every chance they get because they seem incapable of accepting a deep friendship for what it is.

And in response, in other fandoms, I've started writing "unslash" - deep feelings with same-sex kissing, that may look sexual on the surface, but that aren't really sexual. I class them as slash so I don't scare people off by the same sex making out. But there's no arousal from it, no move toward sexuality. There's a trilogy of which I still need to write the third part that will never end in sex - it's an exploration of the feelings which could cause a man to write in a book that is not even his journal that the most important date to remember is that day a friend died. It's 1837 - people die all the time. But this relationship went deeper than other relationships, based on the survivor's actions. Is it slash if I have them kiss often but never entirely sexualise it? Is it slash if this man is known, in later years, to attach himself to an opera singer, a woman, who is already married and with whom he never has sex even though he follows her across Europe for years? Does every relationship remark on sexuality? Or are relationships just relationships and I should feel free to, if pressed, class this work as gen rather than slash even though there are young men making out? Does it undermine the work to label it slash? Or would it be perceived mislabelled if it were labelled gen? Probably both. I cover my ass by mislabelling it slash. But people can read in what they want - that's what I've done in constructing this relationship along these lines in the first place.

The inability to read a same sex friendship as anything other than UST is galling, though, whether that relationship is canon or a fannish construction. It just bugs the crap out of me.
Minisinoo: Dani aiming[info]minisinoo on June 30th, 2005 11:48 am (UTC)
"Unslash" is interesting. :-D I wrote a story once that dealt with bisexuality, since it's often overlooked. It wasn't anti-slash or unslash, really. I just wanted to write a story in which a truly bisexual character chose a woman partner because he loved her, rather than because he was trying to avoid his sexuality. But that's a rather different issue. (g)

The inability to read a same sex friendship as anything other than UST is galling, though, whether that relationship is canon or a fannish construction.

Yes, this is really the thing that bugs me. It's not having more in relationships is a problem -- many of them DO have more! But they don't HAVE to, and that's really my main point. :-)
Strobe lights and sexual content: marvel: wish you were here[info]liviapenn on June 30th, 2005 11:15 am (UTC)

I agree with you on a lot of points, but I also think you're giving the proponents of eros *slightly* short shrift.

It's your argument that philia is better (deeper, more complex, etc.) than eros, and that's arguable, but what about philia vs. philia *and* eros? In bad 'shipper fic, of course, everything interesting about the couple gets dropped and they turn into a Harlequin cliche, but in the *best* slash and het, a deeply passionate friendship becomes sexual and loses nothing of the philia-- in fact, the eros becomes a way for the two people to *cement* their philia.

And yes, that's a Western thing, "love isn't real unless it's also got sex in it," but I think you're setting up philia *vs* eros when really, philia hasn't gone away at all.

A couple of people below have used Jim & Blair of The Sentinel as an example, and it's a good one for what I'm talking about. So, canonically, these are two guys who are *deeply* in each others' back pockets-- best friends who live together, work together, play together, would die for each other, are closer to each other than *anyone* else by a large margin, etc.

So, in various stories, the question has been asked: what happens when Jim meets a nice woman and gets married, does Blair move in next door and come over for dinner every night? He's *still* going to be the most important person in Jim's life. The unique situation that caused them to become so close isn't going to repeat itself with some random woman who's dating Jim. So the question becomes-- what woman would put up with a relationship where she constantly comes in second place behind her husband's best friend? Who's going to date a guy who's pretty much already married?

The relationship between Jim and Blair is *so* primary, *such* intense philia, that it's impossible to even imagine either one of them ever having a typical Western love relationship with anyone else. So where does that leave them? Best friends who are celibate for the rest of their lives? Best friends who get their emotional needs fulfilled by each other, and their sexual needs fulfilled by the occasional one-night stand on the side?

In real life, of course, people can have strong philia relationships without them being "to the exclusion of all else, till death do us part" type relationships, but in a lot of fiction, there are a lot of reasons why that just isn't going to happen. Angel and Cordelia is one example of a philia relationship that (imho) should never have turned romantic, but it was almost inevitable that it did. Neither one of them is exactly able to "go out and meet a nice girl/guy." (At least not without getting them killed by monsters.) They've got deep, passionate *philia* for each other-- and a total inability to connect with anyone outside their own little world. So again, what's a young, passionate girl like Cordelia, with her own sexual needs to do? Become a nun? Or add a sexual component to her relationship with Angel?

I'm not saying it should always happen, or even that it's always inevitable, but I'm reading your argument as: "people prioritize eros over philia, and really it's the other way around," when I actually don't see a lot of de-prioritizing of philia. The fact that so many people *add* eros to philia, to me, comes across as people recognizing that the philia quality of a certain relationship is *so strong* that it's unbreakable, impossible for anyone else to ever intrude upon, and so the possibilities become either eros with each other, or eros with nobody else, ever. And yeah, it's *totally* a Western thing that most people would say: eros with nobody else ever? Unthinkable!

But I think that if the priority really *was* eros over philia, you'd see a lot more people writing slash/het based on the hotness of the characters' appearance vs. slash/het based on the complexity and depth of the canonical relationships.

(And then of course there's a lot of erotica based on characters who have *no* kind of philia in canon, but that's less a diss on philia than eros for eros' sake, and there's a time and a place when you just want some of that, too.)
Minisinoo: alter-ego (Meret)[info]minisinoo on June 30th, 2005 11:45 am (UTC)
but I think you're setting up philia *vs* eros when really, philia hasn't gone away at all.

Actually, no, I wasn't saying that. That's an easy way to take the argument, which is why I stressed at the end that this is NOT intended as an anti-romance arguement, and it's not meant to polarize. It's not either/or but both-and. My main point is that there are OTHER types of relationships that can be fruitful to explore -- not that one has to stop exploring philia + eros, or that philia and eros aren't powerful. The philia is the powerful part -- and it may, or may not, include eros. That's my argument. I, myself, actually write a lot of philia + eros where the philia is the driving element, so I couldn't really argue against it without smacking myself. ;>

The relationship between Jim and Blair is *so* primary, *such* intense philia, that it's impossible to even imagine either one of them ever having a typical Western love relationship with anyone else. So where does that leave them? Best friends who are celibate for the rest of their lives? Best friends who get their emotional needs fulfilled by each other, and their sexual needs fulfilled by the occasional one-night stand on the side?

I wanted to pick this out because I think what you've raised here is a VERY interesting, and very real, delimma -- and it's one this whole question does raise. And part of why I find these kinds of situations very rich for fiction.

Our society is not, generally, set up to handle non-familiar, non-sexual pairings. Most people don't have them. Yet as I noted in the essay, many of the folks written about in fandoms (although by no means all) are atypical. The above problem is a very real one -- and that makes it interesting. Cops often have marital trouble, and it's not only because of the high stress job. It's also that they sometimes bond more strongly to their partner than to their spouse, and the spouse resents it. Penknife mentioned in a comment up above about the jealousy that can arise, as having more than one intense friendship just isn't possible for some people, and/or it's not possible for all members in the multiple pairing -- so one of those pairings collapses ... and it may be the marriage.

So yeah, sometimes what happens with these intense pair-bondings that aren't sexual is that the partners do get sex outside the relationship, and I do think this is often easier for men than women, although that's just a general trend. Then men may also wind up becoming fuck-buddies, too, but I don't think that's necessarily common. I've heard of a few who did try that once, only to discovered "it" just wasn't there and they never tried again.

So the problems set up by these atypical relationships can be kind of interesting, if not necessarily made for easy resolution. :-)
(no subject) - [info]liviapenn on June 30th, 2005 03:57 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on June 30th, 2005 06:51 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]book_worm5 on August 21st, 2007 02:44 am (UTC) Expand
Gene[info]typographer on June 30th, 2005 12:04 pm (UTC)
Very nice. I'm glad [info]rahirah referred me to it.

If it's passionate, there must be something else going on. I find that assumption weird.

Whenever we poke at our cultures assumptions they often make little sense, because this assumption is deeply ingrained in our culture. So deeply ingrained that we, ourselves, in real life often fall victim to it. Not quite twenty years ago I married my best friend, even though I suspected I wasn't just bi, that I was actually exclusively gay. But since the friendship was so intense, it had to be That Kind of Love, right? So we've been divorced 15 years and are back to being best friends, and both infinitely happier about it (and fortunately we both have hubbies who aren't threatened by the friendship).

So, yeah, complex relationships, where you except the intense friendships as part of the web connecting the characters are much more interesting to me. Gimme a few good romances as PART of that web, by all means, but don't ignore everything else.
Minisinoo: Cyke[info]minisinoo on June 30th, 2005 02:01 pm (UTC)
So, yeah, complex relationships, where you except the intense friendships as part of the web connecting the characters are much more interesting to me. Gimme a few good romances as PART of that web, by all means, but don't ignore everything else.

Yup, that's pretty much how I feel. I obviously have nothing against some romance in there (since I write enough of it (g)), but I like the other stuff, too, and sometimes I like seeing the other stuff without the romance, and wonder sometimes why there's not more of that, too, in fanfic.
spikeNdru: Having a thought[info]spikendru on June 30th, 2005 06:14 pm (UTC)
Came here via [info]rahirah, and I agree wholeheartedly with you. In fact, in the fics I read and write I always find the relationship much more interesting than "teh sex" (which is probably why I don't read PWP).

I mean consider -- how often have we heard: "They're just friends." Hmmm? What's with this "just," kimosabe? Sometimes we imply a surprising amount about our cultural values in our off-the-cuff phrasing. We (as a society) don't know quite what to do with "philia on the boundaries." It's regarded with suspicion. If it's passionate, there must be something else going on. I find that assumption weird.

Yes, indeedy! My fandom is BtVS/AtS and for three years, my favorite relationship was Angel/Cordelia. They had developed such a rich, familial, passionate, satisfying friendship that it was just . . . shiny. Then, someone got the idea to add romance to the mix, but not really, so there was an element of will they/won't they hook up that I thought detracted from the wonderful relationship they had developed over the years. Then, of course, they totally destroyed Cordelia's character by having her sleep with Angel's son, turn evil, give birth to a god, and spend the majority of the next year in a coma until she died and TPTB let her come back for a one-shot visit. It was during that visit, in You're Welcome that I realized how very much I had missed the character of Cordelia and her philia-type relationship with Angel. *sigh*

Thank you for posting. This was very thought-provoking.
Minisinoo: divine fire (Jeff)[info]minisinoo on June 30th, 2005 06:56 pm (UTC)
You're welcome and that story about Cordelia just sounds ... incredibly complicated. Sometimes you really wonder what TPTB are thinking, with some of the plotlines they concoct. And people say soap-operas are unbelievable... LOL!
parallactic[info]parallactic on July 3rd, 2005 03:47 pm (UTC)
Came here via a link from metafandom. I agree with pretty much everything. In the fandom I'm currently in, I'm frustrated by the lack of friendship stories, because to me, that's the most important relationship in the series. There is a sub-genre of mentor stories in the fandom. I'm currently in a phase where I want a diet low on romance, and more focused on other things like adventure, friendship, and mentors. Unfortunately, that kind of fic is hard to find. :(

There's 2 lj comms I've found that's also devoted towards the friendship, or platonic relationships in fandom: [info]ampersand_love and [info]relation_ships. They're not very high volume, though.
Minisinoo: Dr. Pepper S/J (Khaki)[info]minisinoo on July 3rd, 2005 04:02 pm (UTC)
Thanks for the pointers! :-) And yes, adverture stories are harder to find. I wonder if that's in part due to the fact they require some plotting, and plotting is something that, for many writers, requires some practice, while many fanfic writers are just starting out?
(no subject) - [info]parallactic on July 3rd, 2005 08:10 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on July 5th, 2005 10:50 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]parallactic on July 5th, 2005 11:35 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on July 5th, 2005 11:54 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]parallactic on July 6th, 2005 01:14 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on July 6th, 2005 01:32 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]parallactic on July 6th, 2005 06:40 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on July 7th, 2005 04:04 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]inkywaters on August 29th, 2005 04:43 pm (UTC)
What a dead-on essay. I have often felt (and argued) this point, in spite of being an active and enthusiastic slash author, but never so well.

Although I have a fondness for believable romantic pairings, and think that slash adds an element of tension rarely seen in same-sex relationships these days, the tendency to slash all possible characters bothers me.

I think it has a real-world effect that is extremely negative, as people (men especially, but women as well) find it harder and harder to express any affection out of fear that it will be misinterpreted; likewise, young people who experience intense philia (to use your terms) are often confused by it and feel pressured to develop a sexual relationship when that is neither a natural or healthy unfolding of their situation.

I came to this essay through a link at [info]sparrington, and I will be putting it in my memories. Thank you for taking the time to describe this situation so lucidly.
Minisinoo: alter-ego (Meret)[info]minisinoo on August 30th, 2005 04:30 am (UTC)
Thank you, and I'm glad it made sense for you. I really have no issues with romantic pairings either, as I said in the essay. I write a lot of them, but I also like to explore OTHER kinds of strongly emotional relationships that may not be sexual. Right now, in fact, in a novel I'm working on, it involves a peculiar menage-a-troi, 2 men, 1 woman, in which the woman and 1 man are both in love with the other man, who's in love with the woman sexually, but not with the man. Yet ALL of them deeply love the others, with or without the sexual overtones. She loves 1 man sexually, 1 not. He loves the other guy sexually, the woman not. And the other he loves the woman, but not the guy. (One guy is straight, one bi-.)

What I'm finding as I write is how very tempting it is to just let that sliiiide over into the sexual side. Let the tension resolve -- but I think the relationship would be less interesting (if also less tragic), and also less realistic. Real life situations like that come up (if maybe not that complicated). But there ARE people for whom we feel intense emotion, yet it really wouldn't occur to us to go to bed with them. While yeah, there are some who will cheerfully have sex with anything (g), I don't think that represents the majority of people (even the majority of men (g)). So I want to maintain the tension inherent in that threesome that two of them are "getting some," while the other guy is left out sexually -- but not emotionally. And this is painful ... and yet not.

I find that I'm just interested in intense emotion period. Sometimes that's sexual. Sometimes it's familial(I have a particular interest in same-gender parent|child relationships: father|son and mother|daughter), sometimes romantic, and sometimes friendship.
(no subject) - [info]inkywaters on August 30th, 2005 07:18 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on August 30th, 2005 07:59 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]inkywaters on August 30th, 2005 10:33 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on August 31st, 2005 10:47 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]inkywaters on September 1st, 2005 06:07 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on September 2nd, 2005 11:32 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]inkywaters on September 9th, 2005 06:14 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on September 11th, 2005 11:36 pm (UTC) Expand
wendelah1: Mulder and Scully FBI[info]wendelah1 on May 20th, 2008 11:24 pm (UTC)
I appreciate this post so much. I love stories that have a complicated plot and I don't much care for sexually explicit fan fiction, het or slash. I feel so frustrated sometimes because in my fandom, The X-Files, most fans are obsessed with the now canon romance between Mulder and Scully, while I would have been happier had they left it platonic. I think that M&S mean so much more to each other than a mere romantic attachment, and the meaning of philia expresses what I mean very well.
Minisinoo: bodies hugging (Mecca)[info]minisinoo on May 21st, 2008 12:14 am (UTC)
Yes, on Mulder and Scully. I started out in fandom there, actually, read a lot, although I didn't write in it (just one crossover w/ X-Men, written much later). But I always read both MSR and MSF, and I will confess that if the MSR ignored the CORE friendship, it bored me VERY quickly. I find that when I write even now and write romances, they almost always begin or have a very strong "friendship" component, in large part because I think those are the stronger pairings. Philia lasts, eros doesn't.
(no subject) - [info]wendelah1 on May 21st, 2008 01:14 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on May 21st, 2008 01:47 am (UTC) Expand
Naraht: hist-Hoover and Tolson[info]emily_shore on May 21st, 2008 02:34 pm (UTC)
Thank you for a really, really thought-provoking read. It came at the right time for me because I've been musing on the relationship of J. Edgar Hoover with his long-term friend Clyde Tolson. For forty-five years they did everything as a couple: worked as FBI director and associate director; ate their meals together; went on all their vacations together; and went to dinners and parties together. When Hoover died, he willed Tolson his entire estate, and Tolson received the American flag at Hoover's funeral.

So naturally historians and biographers have been fussing for years about whether they were actually a hiding-in-plain-sight gay couple, or simply very, very good friends. The most sensible of them has concluded that the two had a "spousal relationship" but that we have absolutely no evidence whether or not it was actually sexual. And in a sense, it doesn't matter, does it?

Apologies if this was a bit of a tangent for a fannish discussion, but it seems to me to be an extraordinarily good example of a strong philia relationship.

Edited at 2008-05-21 02:34 pm (UTC)
Minisinoo: earl of sexington[info]minisinoo on May 21st, 2008 07:36 pm (UTC)
No, that's a good example. I suspect Hoover was purple, but that's exactly it -- they were a couple, sexually or not. And with BOTH straight and gay couples, later in life, the "sexual frenzy" may die down anyway, turning into something else (and more solid). Depending, it may even become an "open" relationship with one or both getting sexual stuff elsewhere, but that doesn't disturb the central philia relationship.

Btw, a similar historical relationship to this might be that of Alexander the Great and his chief marshal, Hephaestion.

Edited at 2008-05-21 07:54 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [info]emily_shore on May 21st, 2008 10:21 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]minisinoo on May 22nd, 2008 03:30 am (UTC) Expand
shingo_the_pest[info]shingo_the_pest on October 30th, 2008 04:14 am (UTC)
An interesting thought. There's several "pairings" that I now recognize as either falling into eros, philia, or both. I've always wondered why I'm less interested in sex with the pairing Sakura/Naruto, but very interested in sex with Sasuke/Naruto, and why, when it comes to emotional closeness and loyalty, I see Sakura/Naruto as stronger.

I see Sakura/Naruto as more philia.
I see Sasuke/Naruto as more eros.

So interesting.
Minisinoo[info]minisinoo on October 30th, 2008 08:28 pm (UTC)
Glad it was an interesting read! :-)
izhilzha: jim&blair gen pride![info]izhilzha on December 19th, 2008 10:06 pm (UTC)
*angelic choirs*

I love that you wrote this! An elegant and well-thought-out essay on a topic that I continually try (with much less success) to defend and define in my own corner of fandom (and RL)!

I'm putting this on my del.icio.us list, and I may share it around my flist, too.
Minisinoo[info]minisinoo on December 19th, 2008 10:44 pm (UTC)
Oh, thank you! (And I like your icon!)